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Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea

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Anonymous (not verified)
Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hmmm, interesting. I spent ages flipping between choosing the Pahi 26 (most favoured) and the Tiki (26 & 21). After much guidance from people on this site (& finally realising that I was being a whimp), I eventually resolved to build the Pahi. I have since (recently) begun building my very first (much smaller) boat, to see how I go with boatbuilding. It's an Ulau, since I like the traditional ethnic type designs and really enjoy padling outrigger canoes. (I'm blogging it, so if anyone's curious, have a look at http://scottyscanoe.blogspot.com ). Only difference is that it's strip planked instead of ply. Anyway, now I've found the boatbuilding process isn't the big scary monster I thought it'd be (so far), it's now got me curious about a Child of the Sea instead of a Pahi. It's still early days yet, but could I possibly extend my newfound bravery to eventually building a CotS? Obviously it'd be much bigger/expensive/time consuming to build, plus it'd be more of a handful to sail singlehanded, but Glen seems to go ok. I don't know much about the crab claw rig yet either, but it sounds like it has certain benefits. The extra room would be great when I take family & friends sailing, and the possibilities for coastal (& even ocean) cruising would be even greater than the Pahi. So what do you reckon? Am I having myself on? Am I just a "Glen Tieman Wannabe"? (Many apologies to all who have patiently put up with my stupid queries like this so far). Regards Scott Dierikx Umina Beach Australia
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Scott, I'm very familiar with this kind of hemming and hawing about projects, so I'll try to play the sort of devil's advocate role I'm looking for when I ask such questions. Just be forewarned that you already have more boatbuilding experience than me, so my advice isn't really worth much in the end. After years of assuming that my boat, whenever I got around to building it, would be stitch-n-glue plywood, I was recently given a book about strip-planked kayaks. It was something of a revelation to learn about how simple the method is. I like that the process becomes, essentially, a million repetitions of a single small, manageable task, followed by the glass & epoxy step that all wooden boats seem to require nowadays. The strip method seems very forgiving and easy to learn. I also like the simplicity of the Child of the Sea's design. I think there's a lot to be said for the low profile, the simple rig, etc. More seaworthy and less to go wrong - and to my eyes, she's beautiful as well. So you're not crazy to consider building a CotS. But I do have some doubts about whether it's smart to change your plans to a design that's double the mass and 45% longer than what earlier seemed perfect. The Pahi is trailerable, CotS isn't; dock/slip fees (and many other operating costs) go up more or less proportionally to the length of your boat, and construction costs rise roughly in proportion to the mass. As for extra room, here's a photo of a 21' Tahiti Wayfarer carrying 9 adults: http://13cinq.over-blog.com/photo-1452984-01010018_jpg.html Clearly, for day-sailing purposes, you can handle a lot of friends on the larger and more seaworthy Pahi, right? But the CotS would have lots more room for sleeping, if you wanted to go out overnight with friends. So I guess if you can afford those extra costs, don't need trailer capability, want the extra space and ocean-going capability, and have the extra time for the build, Child of the Sea is a fine idea, right? You know best what the answer is to each of those questions. --Rich in CO p.s. Thanks for blogging your canoe build, I'm eager to watch your progress.
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hi Rich, that was fast. Thanks for the reply. Your observations mirror exactly what I was thinking, both with choice of construction methods, as well as the perceived advantages/attractions of the CotS itself. Your comments about lack of trailerability of the CotS are duly noted. I just got rid of my little 23ft monohull mainly due to the expense & hassle of slipping and maintenance. It's one of the major factors that has attracted me to Wharram's designs. I love the idea that, when my boat inevitably requires maintenance/antifouling/etc, it's a relatively simple matter of disassembling it & transporting it to my home where I can work on it at my liesure. How hard do you reckon it would be to move a single CotS hull around & perhaps transport it a little distance? Whilst I could probably fit all the people I'd like aboard the Pahi for daysailing, I do intend to overnight aboard my boat as much as possible. I'm not sure how often there'd be many other guests for that sort of thing though. I'm guessing much of my coastal cruising would be either solo or with 1 to 2 others (Pahi), but if I go on to cruise into the Pacific one day, then the choice is obvious as to which one I probably should go for (CotS). I sort of like the idea that I could probably fit my Ulau on the deck of a CotS, along with surfboards, etc. Wonder if it'd be a viable option as a small adventure charter vessel, to offset the costs, etc?..... Regards SD
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hmm, just noticed something wierd. Wharram.com lists the weight of the Child of the Sea as 3.525 tons, or 1600 kilograms. But 1600 kilograms is only ~3500 pounds, not 3.5 tons (~7000 pounds). So something's awry with the math there. As for whether it's trailerable in stages, the answer depends on which way that figure gets corrected, right? I'm guessing that it's the larger of the two possibilities, i.e., 3200 kg or 7000 pounds overall, because those numbers are closer to the weight of the similarly sized Tiki 38. Get an accurate weight and you're a lot closer to knowing whether you can tow it. --Rich in CO, USA
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Yeah, good point. Individual hulls that heavy are going to be a royal pain in the arse to move around. And if I've got to hire cranes & trucks to do it, then I s'pose it's going to be expensive each time. Would the extra space/capabilities be worth it? Hmmmmm. SD
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hello Scott, I wonder if you have come to a conclusion about this yet? The old saying that the smaller the better must apply to Wharrams , especially ethnic designs. What about Tahiti Wayfarer, then? No cabin, but deck tents really do make that a non-issue. It really depends on what you want to do with the boat. If you don't want to live on the boat long-term then the smaller and simpler you go the more practical the build would be. GregF
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hi Greg, thanks for the reply. It's funny you should mention the Wayfarer and its associated good points. I've kind of been in a bit of a loop over the Wayfarer for a while now. After checking out the link posted above from Chris (with the nine people aboard), I can't seem to be able to get it out of my mind. It is a bit smaller than I was planning, but I can't deny the obvious benefits. It's a very logical step to take after I finish my Ulua canoe, and studying the design pictures on this site (plus in a copy of Classic boat magazine that details the Wayfarer), I'm real confident I could build one of these boats quite quickly plus the cost probably wouldn't be crippling. I also like the idea that I probably wouldn't need a motor (I'm thinking Yuloh). I still don't know much about the crab claw rig, other than the tantalising (but brief & mysterious) bits that I've come across in a couple of books and sites, but I'm starting to think it might be a great rig to play with (I can't afford Marchaj's book, and to try to order it through inter library loans will cost over $20, so that bit will have to wait). Can anyone tell me if you can rig a Wayfarer to self steer? So, in a nutshell, you are right. The Wayfarer does indeed seem to be a very practical option. Perfect day boat to solo or with others, with the capability for the odd coastal expedition. Somebody please tell me that all this vascillating goes away. SD
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Scott- I forgot to post the info about CotS's mass after the confusion earlier. The official word is that the boat is 1600 kilograms empty, and the "3.525 tons" refers to the boat's "laden weight" in metric tons. I interpret that to mean that it has a payload capacity of 3525 - 1600 = 1925 kilograms. So a single hull looks like around 700-800 kg, if you're trying to figure that into your towing calculations. Regarding self-steering the Wayfarer, I know that Glenn Tieman has played around with a windvane and lashing of tillers on his CotS. [img]http://www.wharram.eu/photos/index.cgi?mode=image&album=/Ethnic-Designs/... The two boats are similar, but the Wayfarer isn't meant to have the steering paddle mounted. (And Glenn has had trouble with the mounts on his steering paddles, anyway. I think they take a lot of side-loading being located where they are.) I've given the Wayfarer a lot of thought myself, and as the pound drops against the US dollar I've been thinking about grabbing the plans now even though I won't be able to afford to build for a while yet. But I have to say that the steering arrangement is one of the things holding me back. I thought about deviating from the plans to add stern-mounted rudders, but I think it would produce unintended consequences with regard to leeway. --Rich in Colorado, USA p.s. Scott, I'm following the blog of your Ulau build and excited for your recent materials progress and panel tests. If you have time, I'd love to see a post (and some photos) about the tools you're using.
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hey Rich. Thanks for the info on the CotS. 700 - 800 kg does seem a little more doable, although it would still be a bit of a leviathan. Sort of suggests that a bit of an exploration into Wayfarer world might be justified first. Think I just need to suss out; 1. the steering (& sail handling in general). I'm imagining the odd week long cruise, & I think hand steering (with hands full of sheets) all day might become a bit of a drag. 2. possible security arrangements. I'd hate to pull up/anchor somewhere nice & go for a walk, only to find some bastard has stolen my tent, sleeping bag, etc. 3. bow buoyancy. I love the hull shapes, but am wondering if the bows seem quite slim. I'm obliged to cross a notorious bar to access the ocean here (great for surfing outrigger canoes like the Ulua). Do you think they could dig in if I accidentally get picked up by a bit of a wave? Good point about the exchange rate. Think I might start keeping track myself & maybe snap up a set sometime. (Hate to part with my hard earned canoe funds again though. Perhaps if I can finish the Ulua under budget enough.....) :cry: Stoked to hear you're following my humble blog. Hope it's of some help. Will try to remember to show what tools I'm using. It's been a long week at work, but with the weekend off, plus three more days off next week, and with everything starting to come together, I'm hoping to really start making real progress on it (in readiness for the next???). SD
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Yes, the blog is great, Scott! I've sent away for Gary's book on outriggers; I've got a RIB now, but would much rather have an outrigger tender for Vaea, so your build is timely info. . .
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Wish I'd been able to contribute to this thread before but I've been off the grid. The tahiti wayfarer plans describe how to attach the rudder/paddle to the hullside similar to tama moana. TM is a much better boat than p26. Of course its bigger so can carry more and has more sea power, can drive faster through heavier weather. It is no less manuverable though; I tack through very restricted anchorages and channels, usually just steering with the mizzen, rudders raised. I have yet to use the sea anchor on manu rere because she heaves to with mizzen and no main in the worst I've been in over these few years down central, across the south pac and up to micronesia. The longer more slender bow gives an easier motion. The pahi bows are too blunt hitting waves too hard by comparison. This is just a few of the improvements. The only down side is you can build a p26 in a forth the time as tm. First the 26 requires no backbone/bulkhead frame to set up exactly square which I found a significant process to do right. Second you have to fair strip planking inside and out whereas plywood is already fair. This takes time to do well and if you attempt to skip it there will be bubbles under the glass. If you do it half ass the glass will lie down but you won't ever be able to machine sand, third there is three times the fiberglass on tm per sq ft, two layers on the outside and one inside. On the other hand once the hulls are done the boat is done for all practical purposes because the rest is so revolutionary. On other catamarans the hulls are just the beginning. This has benefits in the boat's maintenance over the years too. The huge platform of tied down bare pine planks is maintenance free and the best of the best workbenches. Paint your canoe on it without worry about drop cloth. Hack a fish to death on it then lay out the pieces to dry. I've never used a wind vane. I use sheet-to-tillar downwind and lash the helm with the wind on or forward of the beam. Tm self steers better because the mizzen way aft is the steering sail. It can be easily set forward of the aft shrouds, without dropping it, which helps a lot too, preventing jibes and blanketing the main more effectively. Its true I've had to modify the rudder mounts several times but they work well now.
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Hi Glenn, great to hear your advice on this (as always). It sounds like the CotS would be fun to handle, once I got my head around how to sail/use her. There's no doubt that she'd be the far better sea boat for my eventual voyaging aspirations, I agree much better than the Pahi. How do you go with antifouling (etc) your boat (remote beaches?)? As you're probably aware, "civilized" societies like here really would hammer me if I tried that. Just wondering how much of a job it'd be to perhaps dismantle & transport home for big jobs, rather than pay a fortune for slipping. I'm pretty certain that it's going to be a fair while before I can even begin building something like a CotS (both time & money wise), so I'm getting pretty sure that I should probably build a Wayfarer first (so similar). That way I can learn how to run a boat like the CotS, plus I can develop my (sorely lacking) boatbuilding skills beforehand. Thanks also for the tips on self steering, as well as keeping us all advised on this stuff in general. It's so helpful & following your trip is totally inspiring. Hope you're having an absolute ball out there. SD
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
The wayfarer sounds like a good choice. On the subject of theft; my experience is if you leave her on a beach people will help themselves as if she's an abandoned shipwreck. As long as she's anchored and not abandoned though theft is very rare. You could leave a tent set up with stuff inside, while away for the day, no problem. I do the bottom on beaches but out here where the water is nice to swim in I just scrape the bottom before each passage and never mind antifouling. The tricky thing about bottom painting on a beach is supporting her well enough so she doesn't dig her way into the sand while the tide goes out. Sure beats boatyards though. I don't think you'ld want to disassemble and transport a child of the sea more than once or twice in its life. Too big.
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
I was at the Beale Park boat show here in the UK at the weekend. On the Wharram stand was a model of a new 27' ethnic design. I understand that there are no drawings yet but there is a small study leaflet. It is very much like a large Tahiti Wayfarer but with an interesting cat ketch sprit rig and the option of a removable cuddy cabin. I am sure that more information will be forthcoming from JWD in the near future.
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
Oh great. You're kidding, aren't you? Just what I need, yet more options to ponder, drool & agonize over. Thanks a lot. On a brighter note, JWD have just kindly notified me about a CotS build which is very local to here, which I intend to follow up very shortly. Apparently there's a Wayfarer build too but it's in Queensland. I'm surprised there's not more of these brilliant designs around the place, they seem so logical. SD
Anonymous (not verified)
Re: Pahi 26 vs Child of the Sea
It so often happens like this! The Amatasi (for that is what it is called) is heavily focussed on fishing use rather than cruising/passagemaking. It looks very good and has a hull beam finer than the Tiki 21 (2'10") so could be quite swift.
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